D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Crimson Longinus]

I banned guidance and don't automatically allow helping in every situation in my game, and the PCs keep beating really high DCs just fine. I find the idea that the DCs should be lower utterly perplexing.

 

[Scribe]

So, that also just looks like the system is just a bit too limited to really handle a range of ability when it comes to skill checks. Between d20 linear distribution and BA's small bonuses, you're not able to have characters really bad at something, characters competent at it, and characters really good at it, all interacting reasonably with the available challenges. BA could work with a different core dice mechanic, like 3d6. And d20 has worked with much faster-scaling modifiers and larger differences among PC/monsters, in 3e and 4e (and, for attacks & saves, in the TSR era).

Yes, it is.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Clearly, not to anything like the virulence and persistence they did 4e. There's no comparison whatsoever. The community isn't remotely toxic. The brand is safe, positively venerated.

There are legitimate complaints about 5e, sure. That's on an entirely different plane from the edition war.

You say that, as if it to excuse it. Like, faced with a balanced version of the game, long-time D&D fans had no choice but to devote themselves to rendering the community toxic.

Again, I understand that this is "your thing," but you are mischaracterizing what we actually know.

It is, in fact, an excuse. If the people that are designing a product know that the product will alienate a large portion of the people that will use that product ... then they probably need to check themselves. As I've written multiple times before, designing for D&D is both a blessing and a curse; obviously, you get to design for the BRAND, but the flip side of that is that you are always constrained with what you can and cannot change.

So yeah, if the people designing it know that it will be a problem, and it's also readily apparent to the people that were playtesting it (to the extent that they gave the green light to make a competing product!), then maybe, just maybe, they should have realized that this was going to be an issue that was obviously and necessarily going to arise, and do something about it.

Again, if you want to posit some counterfactual world where the designers modified the game to lessen those issues, that would be one thing. But then again, they wouldn't have made the 4e that you love. That's the problem with designing for a brand- you don't get to just start fresh.

Capitalism is funny that way; you actually have to take into account the market, not just what you want to do. If the product performed well, it would have continued ... regardless of nerdrage. But it didn't ... because it wasn't the nerdrage that was the problem. It was the fact that underlying that nerdrage, a portion of the playerbase was either not playing it, or was bouncing off of it after a short period of time, and these players were not being replaced by an active and vibrant number of new players either.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Folks are also completely capable of living in and out of their tunnels. For example, things bug me about PF2, it would never be my preferred game, but I can also look at it objectively and understand its designed well. Give a try some time.

I did. I'm in a game right now. My dislike of it is based on experience.

 

[Tony Vargas]

designing for D&D is both a blessing and a curse; obviously, you get to design for the BRAND, but the flip side of that is that you are always constrained with what you can and cannot change.

That is true, at least, to an extent - where you might push that boundary is up to you, I guess - and just the sort of thing an alt.history is going to look at ways to get around. Otherwise, it's not really an alt...
Philosophers argue over just how deterministic our universe may be. If we enjoy thinking about alternative ways history has unfolded, we're clearly indulging in hopes of a less deterministic universe.

 

[Minigiant]

There are sacrifices one makes when you design a game so that a 6 year old in 1st grade and a drunk tired 40 year office worker can play with little to no adjustments.

 

[Scribe]

There are sacrifices one makes when you design a game so that a 6 year old in 1st grade and a drunk tired 40 year office worker can play with little to no adjustments.

Absolutely.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

That is true, at least, to an extent - where you might push that boundary is up to you, I guess - and just the sort of thing an alt.history is going to look at ways to get around. Otherwise, it's not really an alt...
Philosophers argue over just how deterministic our universe may be. If we enjoy thinking about alternative ways history has unfolded, we're clearly indulging in hopes of a less deterministic universe.

I believe in the over-determined universe.

The sun will rise. The sun will set. And at some point, a person will say to themselves, "Self, I have a hawt taek on the nature of hit points that I absolutely must post to EnWorld NOW!"

 

[Tony Vargas]

There are sacrifices one makes when you design a game so that a 6 year old in 1st grade and a drunk tired 40 year office worker can play with little to no adjustments.

The guy wasn't drunk, but I did run a demo game at a con that included a father and daughter of about those ages... She very determinedly tracked her own hp, doing the math herself.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There are sacrifices one makes when you design a game so that ... a drunk tired 40 year office worker can play with little to no adjustments.

Wait.... is there another way to play?

Asking for a friend.