Question regarding the Cosmic Firmament of the Sidereals (and above) template and the Cosmic Firmament as Cosmic Ability

[Obly99]

Good evening, this is the first time I am writing on this forum. I have a question that arose from reading the Cosmic Firmament Cosmic Ability:

COSMIC FIRMAMENT (EX)
Within your realm you are supreme.
Prerequisites: Divine Realm.
Benefit: Within your divine realm your divine rank (which manifests as the divinity template's divine bonus) is effectively doubled.
Special: You do not gain any facets of more powerful divinity templates other than the increased divine bonus.

This means that a normal +24 bonus Elder One would have +48 to armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance in its divine realm. Given the Cosmic Firmament ability of the Elder One template:

Cosmic Firmament (Ex): An elder one is the embodiment of a planar layer, as such they are treated as if always within their godly realms, regardless of where they manifest.

It means that it should always have a +48 bonus instead of +24. But in Gods and Monster (although incomplete) Surtur Manifestation has a divine bonus of +24 instead of +48. Also in other works on this forum I have noticed this: Time Lord Avinion by user Belzamus has a divine bonus of +200. This is quite perplexing me. Sorry for any English a little tight but I don't speak it very well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Good evening, this is the first time I am writing on this forum.

Hey there Obly99, glad you were able to find us here.

I have a question that arose from reading the Cosmic Firmament Cosmic Ability:

COSMIC FIRMAMENT (EX)
Within your realm you are supreme.
Prerequisites: Divine Realm.
Benefit: Within your divine realm your divine rank (which manifests as the divinity template's divine bonus) is effectively doubled.
Special: You do not gain any facets of more powerful divinity templates other than the increased divine bonus.

This means that a normal +24 bonus Elder One would have +48 to armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance in its divine realm. Given the Cosmic Firmament ability of the Elder One template:

Cosmic Firmament (Ex): An elder one is the embodiment of a planar layer, as such they are treated as if always within their godly realms, regardless of where they manifest.

It means that it should always have a +48 bonus instead of +24. But in Gods and Monster (although incomplete) Surtur Manifestation has a divine bonus of +24 instead of +48. Also in other works on this forum I have noticed this: Time Lord Avinion by user Belzamus has a divine bonus of +200. This is quite perplexing me. Sorry for any English a little tight but I don't speak it very well.

Good spot, looks like something I may have missed.

(Off the top of my head) If I had to clarify it I would say they don't get the bonus if encountered external to their "realm" - which would be someone else's realm, but to permanently defeat them (unless you are higher rank) you would need to battle them 'in' their realm.

To conceptualize an Elder One being a planar layer, think in terms of a tree and its roots (except the roots are spiritual and not necessarily physical).

This will all be a bit more obvious in 5th Edition with the new Epic book when I explain Mega Monsters.

 

[Obly99]

Hey there Obly99, glad you were able to find us here.

Also happy to find you, I was looking for information on the Cimeriel and Welkin Template when I came across this Forum.

(Off the top of my head) If I had to clarify it I would say they don't get the bonus if encountered external to their "realm" - which would be someone else's realm, but to permanently defeat them (unless you are higher rank) you would need to battle them 'in' their realm.

What you wrote, however, gives me a further doubt: the first is that a divinity can only be killed in his home plane but not necessarily in his divine realm but with what you wrote you imply that he must be killed in his divine realm to die effectively.

MANIFESTATION DESTROYED (NATIVE PLANE)
Should an immortal’s manifestation be destroyed on its native plane (whether within its godly realm or not) it is permanently dead.

The second doubt is that for the Cosmic String, as you have written now, you imply that a creature with higher rank can kill them even outside their home plane / divine realm while for how it is written Cosmic String implies that if even if you are equal or higher you still have to kill them in their home plane / divine realm.

COSMIC STRING (EX)
You are an innate part of the cosmos.
Prerequisites: With 70.
Benefit: You can only be permanently destroyed by a being of equal or higher divine status. If your manifestation is destroyed on your home plane by a being of lower divine status, you simply rejuvenate as if you had been killed on a non-native plane.
Special: Sidereals gain this ability for free. If a being with this ability becomes a sidereal allow them to choose another cosmic ability.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Also happy to find you, I was looking for information on the Cimeriel and Welkin Template when I came across this Forum.

Glad you found us.

Yes the Cimeriel and Welkin were some things hinted at in the previous books at a time when I thought I would do multiple Epic Bestiary's and full time employment (just after I finished Ascension) really put the brakes on that and then 4E hit and I should have stuck to epic but I wanted to do a vampire book...and to cut a long story short I never got around to designing the Cimeriel and Welkin.

At the moment I have a lot more free time (I still work, but only part time) and I like the idea of doing an epic book for 5E.

What you wrote, however, gives me a further doubt: the first is that a divinity can only be killed in his home plane but not necessarily in his divine realm but with what you wrote you imply that he must be killed in his divine realm to die effectively.

MANIFESTATION DESTROYED (NATIVE PLANE)
Should an immortal’s manifestation be destroyed on its native plane (whether within its godly realm or not) it is permanently dead.

This was something derived from 1st Edition AD&D. A deity is permanently slain if defeated on their home plane - they don't necessarily have to be within their divine realm. The divine realm is simply the radius of the plane/layer over which they hold sway.

The second doubt is that for the Cosmic String, as you have written now, you imply that a creature with higher rank can kill them even outside their home plane / divine realm

There are certainly epic spells (and certain epic monsters) which can slay a god permanently even outside of their home plane. I wouldn't necessarily say it was automatic permanent death if a sidereal was to slay an immortal outside their home plane for instance.

while for how it is written Cosmic String implies that if even if you are equal or higher you still have to kill them in their home plane / divine realm.

COSMIC STRING (EX)
You are an innate part of the cosmos.
Prerequisites: With 70.
Benefit: You can only be permanently destroyed by a being of equal or higher divine status. If your manifestation is destroyed on your home plane by a being of lower divine status, you simply rejuvenate as if you had been killed on a non-native plane.
Special: Sidereals gain this ability for free. If a being with this ability becomes a sidereal allow them to choose another cosmic ability.

- First Death (ie. Physical Death, or Material Death) will not kill a god outside their home plane, the spirit simply goes back to their divine realm and rejuvenates.

- Second Death (ie. Spiritual Death, or sometimes Astral Death or Oblivion) will kill a god outside their home plane - but very few monsters have this ability, which is also a high powered epic spell.

For this ability to slay a Sidereal the caster/monster needs to be equal or greater in power (as per Cosmic String).

N.B. possessing an artifact equal to or greater in power than the target might allow a weaker being to slay the sidereal due to the artifact raising the inherent power of the wielder.

- Third Death (ie. Mental Death, or Final Death, Unmaking) is the ability to erase something from ever having existed. You are extinguishing even the idea of them, so no one will remember them.

This ability would over-write Cosmic String.

 

[THExFALLEN]

@Upper_Krust what were the original concepts you had in mind with the Cimeriel and Welkin? What were they going to be concept wise like creature type? Also, what is a Kranger mentioned in the World Flayer (Cogent) Organization? Or at least it's concept of what it was supposed to be in relation. I have a party of mid epic players (ECL:50) and I drew a lot of inspiration from your book. We use a different power scaling and slight different overall systems but for the most part we try to stick to ascension when it comes to divinity.

 

[THExFALLEN]

@Obly99 also, nice work here. I've been browsing these forums once I found them, and I like what I'm seeing. ^_^

 

[Obly99]

@Upper_Krust what were the original concepts you had in mind with the Cimeriel and Welkin? What were they going to be concept wise like creature type?

For the Welking in this threat was discussed.

Nosferatu and Wlekin template

hi this are templates i have developed, my first developing work tell me what do you think? CREATING A NOSFERATU “Nosferatu” is a template that can be added to any 20 level/HD character has been a vampire for centuries, overlapping with those previous templates rather than adding to them...

www.enworld.org

The Cimerial if my memories don't betray me was a titanic monster impaled by weapons that gained the powers of all of them.
Now I post my version of Nosferatu and Welkin on the Custom divine abilities thread.

 

[Upper_Krust]

@Upper_Krust what were the original concepts you had in mind with the Cimeriel and Welkin? What were they going to be concept wise like creature type?

Envision the terms Flesh & Blood, Bone & Spirit (or Shadow).

So...
Zombie < Mummy < Hunefer = Flesh 'chain'
Ghoul < Vampire < Nosferatu = Blood 'chain'
Wight < Death Knight/Lich < Cimeriel/Demilich = Bone 'chain'
Shadow < Ghost/Wraith < ? = Spirit 'chain'

Now imagine these chains overlap, so Bone (spellcaster) + Spirit = an Akalich, Bone (martial) + Spirit = Abholos ("Murder Mist")

IIRC, the Welkin was the overlap of the Flesh & Blood chains.

Hunefer, Nosferatu, Cimeriel & Demilich were all Demigod rank

Akalich & Abholos were of Intermediate God rank

Overlapping 3 would give you and Elder One of some type.

Overlapping all 4 would have you arrive at the first one...Death/Entropy

Also, what is a Kranger mentioned in the World Flayer (Cogent) Organization? Or at least it's concept of what it was supposed to be in relation.

I can't take credit for the Krangar, that was a monster S'mon (my DM) came up with (or maybe he was inspired by some sci-fi novel) and this was designed before the Far Realm or Pseudonaturals were even a thing, although to my knowledge we never fought one.

Krangar were basically Huge (Psionic* ) Crabs with vorpal pincers. Visually I always saw them like Fighting Fantasy's Slime Suckers...but with crazy pincers; but I plan to detail them in the book after this one so I might change things between now and then...I actually just saw some amazing concept art that would be cool.

*or Psionic immune - I can't recall exactly.

I have a party of mid epic players (ECL:50) and I drew a lot of inspiration from your book. We use a different power scaling and slight different overall systems but for the most part we try to stick to ascension when it comes to divinity.

I appreciate it. I really hope you like this new book.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Obly99 buddy!

The Cimerial if my memories don't betray me was a titanic monster impaled by weapons that gained the powers of all of them.
Now I post my version of Nosferatu and Welkin on the Custom divine abilities thread.

still needs shaded and cleaned up a bit but...

...there is also a gigantic monster impaled with weapons (actually from mythology), but I'll detail that at a later date.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all,

just a small addendum. I mean to add that while the Nosferatu was to be the vampire extension equivalent of the Demilich or Hunefer in 3rd Edition...for 4th Edition I changed that role to the Vetala.

The Nosferatu was to be switched to planar vampires linked to the Shadowfell. Other planar vampires (linked to different planes) would have been the Varcolac, the Strigoi and a few others I can't recall off the top of my head.

 

[THExFALLEN]

@Upper_Krust I came across an ability I was wondering how you intended it to be. I may be building a vicissitude ability tree depending on how it was intended to work.

VICISSITUDE (EX)
Your manifestation adopts a second identity.
Prerequisites: Cha 40, Disguise 40 Ranks, Polymorph, Shapechange.
Benefit: You can develop an entirely new alter-ego. Thereafter you can
change between these two identities at will. The alter-ego begins with a
hit die/level no greater than the deities divine rank (from then on
advancing as a separate entity). It can radiate any alignment, be of any race
or class and is otherwise untraceable to the original manifestation.
Special: For instance, Loki, the god of trickery, could develop a second
identity which could be a giantess called Thokk.

What would happen if the deity was slain while in the alter-ego? Like let's use Loki as Thokk for example. What would happen if Thokk was slain outright? Would Thokk return to the divine realm of Loki and restore as normal deities rejuvenate? Or would something else occur?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there THExFALLEN!

@Upper_Krust I came across an ability I was wondering how you intended it to be. I may be building a vicissitude ability tree depending on how it was intended to work.

VICISSITUDE (EX)
Your manifestation adopts a second identity.
Prerequisites: Cha 40, Disguise 40 Ranks, Polymorph, Shapechange.
Benefit: You can develop an entirely new alter-ego. Thereafter you can
change between these two identities at will. The alter-ego begins with a
hit die/level no greater than the deities divine rank (from then on
advancing as a separate entity). It can radiate any alignment, be of any race
or class and is otherwise untraceable to the original manifestation.
Special: For instance, Loki, the god of trickery, could develop a second
identity which could be a giantess called Thokk.

What would happen if the deity was slain while in the alter-ego? Like let's use Loki as Thokk for example. What would happen if Thokk was slain outright? Would Thokk return to the divine realm of Loki and restore as normal deities rejuvenate? Or would something else occur?

Good question, In my opinion, if the alter-ego was truly slain (permanently as per any deity) then the god would also be slain. Its an alternate personality but they still share one 'physicality'.

However, once the alter-ego suffered damage sufficient to destroy the manifestation alone the deity would revert to its original state.

So just to clarify what I mean here.

Hit Points on a deity's home plane are doubled.

1. If you destroy the manifestation outside its home plane then it reverts to the original.
2. If the manifestation is on its home plane and takes damage equal to its standard (not doubled) Hit Points then it reverts to the original (who now has standard hit points not doubled - even on its home plane because its just lost half).
3. If the manifestation is somehow completely destroyed/annihilated on its home plane (or with an ability that can kill a god outside its home plane) before it can revert (one attack just wipes it out completely for instance) then it is completely destroyed and it does not revert to its original form.

That said I suppose you could clone yourself/create avatar or similar and there could be two physically different forms, but just based on the Vicissitude power alone its just a separate identity.

 

[RoyDude]

But in Gods and Monster (although incomplete) Surtur Manifestation has a divine bonus of +24 instead of +48.

im sorry to bother but is Gods and monster an unreleased book from eternity publishing

 

[Beefermatic]

im sorry to bother but is Gods and monster an unreleased book from eternity publishing

It's unfinished but it was released.

 

[RoyDude]

It's unfinished but it was released.

oh it was! is there a pdf i can buy or was it paperback

 

[Beefermatic]

it's an unfinished pdf, it should be on here somewhere

 

[Beefermatic]

Here you go

The Immortal's Handbook: Gods & Monsters (unfinished)

Happy nondenominational holiday to all you epic (and above) level/tier fans out there! I come bearing gifts on behalf of Eternity Publishing! Those of you who've been following the Vampire Bestiary thread here may have noticed that U_K let it slip that he was planning to release the unfinished...

www.enworld.org

 

[RoyDude]

Here you go

thank you!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there RoyDude!

im sorry to bother but is Gods and monster an unreleased book from eternity publishing

Thanks to Beefermatic for posting the file link.

Gods & Monsters was unfinished. Some of that material will be released in Immortals Handbook: Ascension 2023 (fully illustrated) when I get the cover sorted. Hopefully get the pdf and Print on Demand on sale by the end of the month. Slight hiccup with the Cover Template.