D&D 5E Sorcerers and Versatility

[Dragonsbane]

Huh, a ton of information on numbers. Does anyone pick a concept and make PC around it anymore? Bookish vs innate arcane caster? Huge spell list vs metamagic . . . RP? Flavor? Background? That is usually how I pick.

 

[Delandel]

I'll add my voice that OP's analysis is spot-on with my experiences.

I've played a Sorcerer from levels 1-7. Also have played Vengeance Paladin and Life Cleric. I've seen all the classes played until at least level 5, and some up to level 10.

For the record, here is my sorcerer's current spell list. It's not as robust as some people make it sound like.

My issues with sorcerers are:

1) Too limited spell list. It's a balancing point, yes. The CONCEPT is a sound one. It's just that Wizards got their number wrong. I think they've pretty much acknowledged this by giving the new sorcerer subclasses bonus spells. If the PHB was allowed a rework, I'm certain they would have done the same for Dragon and Wild.

2) Metamagic is the big draw to the class but it too is incredibly limited. You know two at 3rd. Then the next one you get is at 10th I believe. Finally the fourth at 17th. You also DO NOT get to tretrain these metamagics, like you would with spells or invocations. I took Twin and Empowered. I decided later on that I don't like Empowered and would rather Quicken -- well tough, gotta wait until 10th level, and even then I'm stuck with Empowered forever.

3) Metamagic and regaining spells share the same resource. How I wish I could regain spells the Wizard way instead of needing to spend Sorcery Points.

So basically what OP said.


Unfortunately, I highly doubt Wizards are going to rework anything in the PHB, so even if Wizards agrees with these complaints it's not like they'll do anything to existing classes.

The good news is that new subclasses sort of "fix" issues as best they can. Both Favored Soul and Stormborn sorcerers get bonus spells. I doubt this is a coincidence, but an acknowledgment that sorcerers got too few in the PHB.

 

[famousringo]

Sorcerers are likely to pick spells with the most reliable usage. The spells they will use 90% of the time. So they're unlikely to "pick wrong" but instead have unsuitable situational spells for particular adventures.
A wizard, because they can pick new spells, can render themselves ineffective in different ways, as they swap out a useful spell for a less useful one. This hurts more as they choose poorly that long rest and know the appropriate spell, they just don't have it prepared. It's right there and they didn't take it.
And if a wizard makes a poor choice of spell for a level they're stuck with that forever. The sorcerer is stuck with it for a level.

As for prepared spells, an 8th level wizard likely has 13 spells prepared each day (5 Int + 8th level). The sorcerer has 9. The wizard has all of 4 more spells prepared. That isn't a huge amount (and at lower levels the disparity is even smaller). It's going to have only a minor effect on potency and usefulness as the spells per day are the same.

This is quite the judo trick to portray the wizard's unique advantage as some kind of disadvantage.

They're stuck with a bad pick forever? Well, their spellbook is. But their spellbook grows with levels, found spells, bought spells, and traded spells. Pretty rough getting stuck with all those dozens of spells for all time.

It "hurts more" when they prepare the wrong spell? This is some kind of "freedom is slavery" argument.

I'm all for diversifying caster mechanics and flavor, but don't try to pretend it's some kind of odious burden to have the biggest spell selection and most effective ritual magic in the game.

 

[Jester David]

This is quite the judo trick to portray the wizard's unique advantage as some kind of disadvantage.

They're stuck with a bad pick forever? Well, their spellbook is. But their spellbook grows with levels, found spells, bought spells, and traded spells. Pretty rough getting stuck with all those dozens of spells for all time.

It "hurts more" when they prepare the wrong spell? This is some kind of "freedom is slavery" argument.

I'm all for diversifying caster mechanics and flavor, but don't try to pretend it's some kind of odious burden to have the biggest spell selection and most effective ritual magic in the game.

Wizards cannot trade out spells. So they cannot drop a low level spell they're seldom using any more in favour of more utility. A new low level spell comes at the cost of an existing spell.
Any extra spells gained requires DM compliance, it's not automatic.

I'm not saying that wizard flexibility is bad, just that it's potentially problematic. It's easy to bork your wizard for the day through some poor choices. More system mastery, planning, and forethought is needed. You have more spells to keep track of which means knowing what those spells do enough to make an informed choice.
A skilled player can make a wizard a force to be reckoned with and take full advantage of the options. But not every player is a skilled player. At best, some will play a wizard identical to a sorcerer, and at worst some will pick spells terrible for the adventure at hand while also slowing down the game for everyone as they go through their entire list of spells picking new ones each day.

 

[CapnZapp]

A wizard gets two spells every level compared to the sorcerer's one.

That's the very minimum.

I would say the wizard can expect to find more spells, sometimes many more spells.

 

[Jester David]

That's the very minimum.

I would say the wizard can expect to find more spells, sometimes many more spells.

It's the baseline, not the minimum. It will vary dramatically based on the campaign.

I remember a single wizard in all of Princes of the Apocalypse with a spellbook. Because monsters don't need to follow PC rules there's no hard reason for them to have spells (and if making a PC the flexibility of a wizard is less useful so it's better to make a sorcerer/warlock and nova).

A DM can choose to allow spells to be more readily available for purchase and award lots of scrolls as treasure. But a DM can also have powerful NPCs impart more spell knowledge into a sorcerer if desired.

 

[Delandel]

A level 4 sorcerer has 5 known/prepared spells. A level 4 wizard (16 starting INT, +2 ASI) has minimum 12 known spells and can prepare 8 of them. The wizard could prepare the exact 5 spells that the sorcerer has chosen, then use his remaining 3 slots to cycle through his minimum 7 other spells as needed.

At level 8 it's 9 prepared, 9 known for sorc and 13 prepared, minimum 20 known. Look at my spell list that I posted. I would LOVE to have 4 more spells prepared. Not to mention those spells can be picked from 20. Holy crap would that be amazing. But jester says

It's going to have only a minor effect on potency and usefulness as the spells per day are the same.

Minor effect? Come on.

Wizards cannot trade out spells. So they cannot drop a low level spell they're seldom using any more in favour of more utility. A new low level spell comes at the cost of an existing spell.

A wizard knows more spells than a sorcerers knows + retrains, ever.

A level 5 sorcerer knows 6 spells and had the opportunity to retrain 4 times. A level 5 wizards knows 14 spells, minimum.

A level 20 sorcerer knows 15 spells and had the opportunity to retrain 19 times. A level 20 wizard knows 44 spells, minimum.

To try and portray this as anything but a strict advantage for the wizard is dishonest and makes any argument on the subject lose credibility. This is some serious mental gymnastics here.

 

[Minigiant]

A level 4 sorcerer has 5 known/prepared spells. A level 4 wizard (16 starting INT, +2 ASI) has minimum 12 known spells and can prepare 8 of them. The wizard could prepare the exact 5 spells that the sorcerer has chosen, then use his remaining 3 slots to cycle through his minimum 7 other spells as needed.

At level 8 it's 9 prepared, 9 known for sorc and 13 prepared, minimum 20 known. Look at my spell list that I posted. I would LOVE to have 4 more spells prepared. Not to mention those spells can be picked from 20. Holy crap would that be amazing. But jester says



Minor effect? Come on.



A wizard knows more spells than a sorcerers knows + retrains, ever.

A level 5 sorcerer knows 6 spells and had the opportunity to retrain 4 times. A level 5 wizards knows 14 spells, minimum.

A level 20 sorcerer knows 15 spells and had the opportunity to retrain 19 times. A level 20 wizard knows 44 spells, minimum.

To try and portray this as anything but a strict advantage for the wizard is dishonest and makes any argument on the subject lose credibility. This is some serious mental gymnastics here.

It is is clear advantage. However a wizard is easier to screw up than a sorcerer for an adventure day.

After level 3, a sorcerer can bail themselves out of a bad choice with metamagic. The orc general is a half white dragon and your only fire spell is little old burning hands? A sorcerer can empower it, distance it, heighten it, or quicken it. And if you had fireball but ran out of slots for it, they can convert 5 points into one of the 2 3rd level slots you ran out of. And you can always melt down those useless slots into points. A wizard is stuck. All hey can do is cast it as a higher slot.

The wizard is VERY STRONG when they guess right and kind of bad when they guess wrong.
The sorcerer doesn't have choices and kinda hard to choose wrong because of it (provided you choose a theme).

 

[Ashrym]

A level 4 sorcerer has 5 known/prepared spells. A level 4 wizard (16 starting INT, +2 ASI) has minimum 12 known spells and can prepare 8 of them. The wizard could prepare the exact 5 spells that the sorcerer has chosen, then use his remaining 3 slots to cycle through his minimum 7 other spells as needed.

In the end, those 2 more 2nd-level and 1 more 1st-level spells are unlikely to matter given the low number of spell slots because they aren't likely to see play. The extra cantrip and metamagic are more likely to see play and therefore more likely to matter. If they do see play they still aren't necessarily impacting.

The wizard also cannot simply cycle 3 slots as needed. The first flaw in that reasoning is the assumption those spells will be needed. The second flaw is that he doesn't know which he needs until the encounters and by then it's to late to cycle them; he might guess and hope he's correct but that can be hit or miss. The third flaw is the assumption that having those spells and using them will have more impact than metamagic would even if the spells do come into play. The fourth flaw in that reasoning is in the lost opportunity for the first set of spells being useful because the spell slots are gone at that point so the first set of spells can no longer be useful (that's just traded benefit instead of additional benefit).

No one is disputing that more spells are available for the wizard. The dispute is in the level of impact that might have. A few more spells on hand isn't that impactful; it's more of a perk than big benefit.

At level 8 it's 9 prepared, 9 known for sorc and 13 prepared, minimum 20 known. Look at my spell list that I posted. I would LOVE to have 4 more spells prepared. Not to mention those spells can be picked from 20. Holy crap would that be amazing.

It's not more amazing than metamagic. The grass just looks greener.

A wizard knows more spells than a sorcerers knows + retrains, ever.

A level 5 sorcerer knows 6 spells and had the opportunity to retrain 4 times. A level 5 wizards knows 14 spells, minimum.

A level 20 sorcerer knows 15 spells and had the opportunity to retrain 19 times. A level 20 wizard knows 44 spells, minimum.

To try and portray this as anything but a strict advantage for the wizard is dishonest and makes any argument on the subject lose credibility. This is some serious mental gymnastics here.

A wizard obviously cannot go back in time and select a different spell added to the spell book as part of leveling up. Spells known casters can reselect from the entire class spell list when they swap while leveling while the wizard reselecting prepared spells is limited to that selection of 2 or 4 class spells acquired for that spell level.

The wizard selection will always be restricted to what's in the spell book so needs to hunt down an option while a sorcerer can trade a spell from the entire sorcerer spell list instead when a spell outlives it's usefulness.

A wizard who added fireball, dispel magic, leomunds hut, and haste isn't going to be able change his mind later and have hypnotic pattern as an option.

It's not a huge benefit but it is a benefit over wizards.

 

[MoonSong]

Huh, a ton of information on numbers. Does anyone pick a concept and make PC around it anymore? Bookish vs innate arcane caster? Huge spell list vs metamagic . . . RP? Flavor? Background? That is usually how I pick.

This is not exactly fair, if you read any of my posts I keep saying that lack of versatility is a problem, why is a floating disk bookish? just because it has a wizard's name in the name? why innate is so inferior? why can't I be innate and still craft magically? or what about pets? why can't I have a familiar? (all previous versions of the sorcerer had familiars) why I can't wield a spear (again all sorcerers had spear proficiency) Everything I complain about is about concept, dragon sorcerers are barely palatable, and I could care less for their blasting bonus, but I know it must be worth 10 spells known, and the errata just makes me rethink it.

I'll add my voice that OP's analysis is spot-on with my experiences.

I've played a Sorcerer from levels 1-7. Also have played Vengeance Paladin and Life Cleric. I've seen all the classes played until at least level 5, and some up to level 10.

For the record, here is my sorcerer's current spell list. It's not as robust as some people make it sound like.

My issues with sorcerers are:

1) Too limited spell list. It's a balancing point, yes. The CONCEPT is a sound one. It's just that Wizards got their number wrong. I think they've pretty much acknowledged this by giving the new sorcerer subclasses bonus spells. If the PHB was allowed a rework, I'm certain they would have done the same for Dragon and Wild.

2) Metamagic is the big draw to the class but it too is incredibly limited. You know two at 3rd. Then the next one you get is at 10th I believe. Finally the fourth at 17th. You also DO NOT get to tretrain these metamagics, like you would with spells or invocations. I took Twin and Empowered. I decided later on that I don't like Empowered and would rather Quicken -- well tough, gotta wait until 10th level, and even then I'm stuck with Empowered forever.

3) Metamagic and regaining spells share the same resource. How I wish I could regain spells the Wizard way instead of needing to spend Sorcery Points.

So basically what OP said.


Unfortunately, I highly doubt Wizards are going to rework anything in the PHB, so even if Wizards agrees with these complaints it's not like they'll do anything to existing classes.

The good news is that new subclasses sort of "fix" issues as best they can. Both Favored Soul and Stormborn sorcerers get bonus spells. I doubt this is a coincidence, but an acknowledgment that sorcerers got too few in the PHB.

Yes, I took it as a big "Sorry we screwed up this class, here have something that addresses the problem". As long as they keep metamagic away from everybody else I willl be happy.