D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Scribe]

If they were redesigned to be that way possibly. But if you're going to make hypothetical class and magic redesigns then why not just design an actually good fighter class rather than invent a collection of spells?

There is an actually good Fighter, that sees the most use out of any class.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Too much math is bad design. By the same token too much friction is a problem but frictionless environments are weird.

Okay. At this point, folks are telling us that if the friction is ever measurable, in even the smallest degree, it is too much friction. That was the point being made. Doind more than adding one one-digit number to another is verboten except at very high levels.

Just refluff it.

Woefully inadequate for the reasons explained by Neonchameleon.

I mean the hypothetical where a Melee attack is really nothing more than a Melee range Cantrip.

So....now we're not just refluffing then? Because I'm pretty sure every melee cantrip has either V or S components. I just checked. Unless there's another one that isn't shocking grasp or the three taken from 4e Swordmage.

There is an actually good Fighter, that sees the most use out of any class.

Hence why they're making absolutely no changes to the playtest version, right?

Right...?

 

[Scribe]

Hence why they're making absolutely no changes to the playtest version, right?

No, not at all. You dont generate hype for your 'not a new edition honest to god folks' by leaving everything the same.

You generate hype and interest by throwing out a few bones here or there, and power creeping the game.

As noted earlier, do the Second Wind or Rage changes really change the math in any real way compared to a Bard or Wizard?

Or are they just there as token updates?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Okay. At this point, folks are telling us that if the friction is ever measurable, in even the smallest degree, it is too much friction. That was the point being made. Doind more than adding one one-digit number to another is verboten except at very high levels.

And yet I don't even need to do that in Blades in the Dark. But I think that's a slight exaggeration - two double digit numbers in D&D.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No, not at all. You dont generate hype for your 'not a new edition honest to god folks' by leaving everything the same.

You generate hype and interest by throwing out a few bones here or there, and power creeping the game.

As noted earlier, do the Second Wind or Rage changes really change the math in any real way compared to a Bard or Wizard?

Or are they just there as token updates?

I mean I have literally said that Tactical Mind is a weak but at least earnest attempt to fix the problem and explicitly given my own example of what I think would close the remaining gap without, despite the hyperbole, making Fighters identical to spellcasters. Well, alongside breaking the link between Tactical Mind and Second Wind so you aren't, as usual, sacrificing your personal combat ability for the equivalent of a slightly empowered cantrip.

Naturally, that suggestion was largely ignored.

 

[Scribe]

I mean I have literally said that Tactical Mind is a weak but at least earnest attempt to fix the problem and explicitly given my own example of what I think would close the remaining gap without, despite the hyperbole, making Fighters identical to spellcasters. Well, alongside breaking the link between Tactical Mind and Second Wind so you aren't, as usual, sacrificing your personal combat ability for the equivalent of a slightly empowered cantrip.

Naturally, that suggestion was largely ignored.

I mean there are solutions everywhere, but if we are talking about the token gestures Wizards is making as you brought up, then there we are.

It would be quite an edge case for me to pop a Rage on a social encounter instead of just letting the classes better suited to it, focused on it, do it instead.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

And yet I don't even need to do that in Blades in the Dark. But I think that's a slight exaggeration - two double digit numbers in D&D.

Nah. Not really. That's literally why they did what they did with Proficiency. It only becomes two-digit at the highest levels if you have Expertise. Otherwise it's a two digit number (most rolls) plus two one-digit numbers (ability score and proficiency.)

If both numbers were freely allowed to be two-digit then there would never have been a problem with 4e's math, because you never add numbers beyond that, except for calculating HP, which remains true in 5e.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I mean there are solutions everywhere, but if we are talking about the token gestures Wizards is making as you brought up, then there we are.

It would be quite an edge case for me to pop a Rage on a social encounter instead of just letting the classes better suited to it, focused on it, do it instead.

Then don't make the Barbarian use such a precious resource in order to have small but meaningful tools to contribute some of the time.

 

[Scribe]

Then don't make the Barbarian use such a precious resource in order to have small but meaningful tools to contribute some of the time.

Small and meaningful. I mean what does that even mean?

Its a social encounter. You have a Bard focused on Social in the party, with you.

Does the Fighter/Barb, under pretty much any 'normal' use case have a meaningful contribution mechanically under any sane approach in 5e or the 2024 UA?

 

[Neonchameleon]

No, not at all. You dont generate hype for your 'not a new edition honest to god folks' by leaving everything the same.

It's less of a new edition than 3.5. But there are significant improvements (and I'd argue far more beneficial changes than 3.5 even if there's less to break backwards compatibility). Off the top of my head:

• First level feats
• Feats with stat boosts and rebalanced
• Weapon Mastery
• Subclasses all starting at level 3
• Many many more classes have options at level 2
• The sorcerer is no longer crippled by lack of spells known meaning it's not a waste of a class - and now has its post-Xanathar's identity not its PHB mess in the revised PHB
• Assuming they cut back the third attack the Warlock has still had a glow-up on the Invocations and on two of its subclasses
• A whole raft of QoL improvements for the Rogue, including Vex for perma-advantage and actual options with Sneak Attack from L5 onwards.
• Barbarians now maintain their rage - but still have their Level > 11 problems
• A bit of a fighter glow-up - although not one that fixes their Level > 11 problems
• Druids getting Wild Companion and otherwise getting good uses out of Wild Shape

You generate hype and interest by throwing out a few bones here or there, and power creeping the game.

As noted earlier, do the Second Wind or Rage changes really change the math in any real way compared to a Bard or Wizard?

Or are they just there as token updates?

They absolutely help with the fighter and barbarian 1-10 experience where 90% of games are played. By contrast the level 12+ issues with fighter and barbarian are unfixed