Why hate 3eR before it comes out?

[John Crichton]

First what do you mean books don't last forever... let it be know I hold an original copy of the DMG in my hand right now. Its from 1979 and although a little scuffed it served me well and still would if I chose to use it. I use the hell out of my books and they still last forever. So I have to say you should treat your stuff better.

I treat all my RPG materials very well. I am one of the folks who would have bought a new PHB & DMG this year already had I not known about 3.5 impending release. My stuff isn't falling apart at the seams but it is showing a decent amount of wear and tear. I don't really need new books right now but I will.

My first PHB (a 2e, one) is totally shot. Cover has fallen off and the binding is gone. I used it for about 6 years (retired it about 5 years ago I think) to get it to this condition. I am mostly a DM so reference it alot. Sometimes the books just go no matter how well you treat them.

Personally I agree with Limper except for one thing... replace all instances of WotC with Hasboro. I played 1e and 2e going to the next book for rules clarification doesn't bother me in the slightest... the changes could all have been put in a new book and I'd have liked it better.

They are putting it all in a new book, it just happens to be an updated version of the PHB, DMG & MM. You still have your Core 3e stuff, right? Just use that and peek @ the SRD for the new changes.

I say complain all you want, folks. Doesn't change the fact that WotC needs to make money to stay in business. If that means updated Core Books, so be it. God forbid they try to improve their product.

To Limper, Vhane and all others against 3.5: What would you do if you were in charge? Can you think of a better way to handle a rules update? Or would you just ignore the gaming community and keep supporting a product that you know could use some improvement? This is not a flame or an insult. I am interested to hear other ideas on how to make changes.

 

[Kyramus]

what I hate about this is , they used the exact same tactic with star wars.

They came out with the books. Then when the movie came out, they altered the book and remarketed it.

Those of us who bought the first book, would need to get the second book just to use the correct system. when they should have done was a splatbook of revisions and it would be a lot more profitable for them since people will but the splat book to see what they missed, instead of the whole book all over again.

That's how I feel about 3.5 so I'm just going to wait on 3.5 SRD and use that as a splat book of revisions. Go through it and just mark off what I want and not want.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I agree Star Wars fans got screwed out of some cash becasue of poor testing of the product, but this is not the same. 3E is a good and viable system that has been around for a few years. Hasbro/WoTC needed to reprint the owners manuals and instead of sending the same thing to the printer, someone (I would like to thank) decided, why don't we try to address many of the balance and system issues our fans and customers have discovered. They are reprinting the manuals with some fixes.

Some of the same people complaining about the new rules complained some of the original 3E rules were poorly thought out or poorly explained. Why is it wrong to fix it? It will make new players understand the game easier and make many existing fans happy.

You are not required to purchase the new info as mentioned above, they are providing it for free. I hope I get ripped off like this many more times.

 

[Voneth]

Yeah, I agree the handling of the Star Wars game was a black spot on WotC's record, now about 3.5.

I only bought the $20 DMG and MM a year ago because I found a store that still had them and I was afraid I was going to miss out. Before that, I was running the game with a PHB and some 3rd party stuff for challenges and critters - and I ignored all the AoO related feats and such. For what I have read so far, all I need to do is download the SRD class chapter, spell lists for the classes and cut and paste the "H" chapter of spells. Then I will decided what to keep or lose.

At the very least I know have two offical varients of Ranger and Monk to chose from.

 

[Leopold]

lack of information, propoganada, and assumptions is just adding fuel to the fire for this 'hate' of 3.5E. I'll wait till there is more proof before i decide yea or nay on this..

 

[WizarDru]

when they should have done was a splatbook of revisions and it would be a lot more profitable for them since people will but the splat book to see what they missed, instead of the whole book all over again.

Actually, according to the sales and marketing data, as well as discussion from current and former WoTC employees, the splatbooks make far less money than the core books, and softcovers are less profitable than hardbacks. It would might have worked out to be somewhat cheaper for Star Wars fans, but then it might not have. It certainly would have been a bad move for WoTC.

Generally, WoTC has made few to no moves in the last three years that I've disagreed with. They have shown a general regard for their customer base, and have yet to make a serious mis-step with the D&D product line (excepting Chainmail, which isn't really D&D per se). I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Henry]

Limper, I'm having trouble understanding your point...

in a previous post you said:

This is what I hate about it... rather than print a single 30 dollar book with the errata and changes in it... which I'd likely purchase without batting an eye... they have chosen to make me repurchase ALL the core books again, including what they haven't changed at all.

In a later post you then said:

Still its money that WotC is forcing me to spend... toner cartridges, or Kinkos its an expense I shouldn't have to spend.

So you have a problem with paying about USD $5.00 to USD$10.00 for a laser-printed version of changes from the SRD, versus paying $30.00 for a likely softcover book of errata to 3E. I'm totally missing the reasoning here, other than having a color bound book for triple the price.

And the use of said SRD here is in the creation of said laser print-out; it is perfectly legal to do so, and allow all gamers to share in the changes. Printing the SRD is one thing; you are looking at about 1000 pages there, at about a $50.00 price tag; but a document of the specific changes, which is what you claimed you wanted, will have a page count far less than that.

I'm not understanding your desires here. What you stated you want will be available, either immediately in or soon after July; it just won't be a hardcover color book. (I have a strong feeling that Drawmack will have links to just that very thing as soon as he can manage it.)


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for Daiymo:

While I like the fact that Wizards admits that there is room for improvement and change based on customer feedback, I fear this sets a precedence of sorts where a large part of the community can agitate for something long enough and loud enough and WoTCwill change it. I'll admit I'm probably being a bit paranoid in this, but the squeaky wheel does get the grease and all that.

Am I correctly reading here that responding to fan preference concerning the game is a bad thing? It is the only way that they know that they are going in a positive direction with regards to the rules. They do not use merely disgruntled responses, incidentally; they have according to Anthony Valterra and others used playtesting, surveys, and other means of feedback to get responses on some of the more controversial rules changes.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Because it is nothing more than a ploy to get your money. If you don't like some of the current rules. Change em.

Since I didn't see anyone else address this I will.

First, the repeat: get the SRD it's free--costs you no money, so they don't get any of it.

Second, you can't generally make extensive houserules for things like the RPGA living campaigns. For baseline tournament play, you need to have a good base ruleset. House rules can be a good thing; minimizing the need for house rules can be a beautiful thing.

 

[Corinth]

They came out with the books. Then when the movie came out, they altered the book and remarketed it.

(Above is WRT d20 Star Wars)

That's not WOTC's fault. That's Lucas Licensing's fault. The deal with Lucas Licensing required WOTC to put out a new edition of the RPG in order to support the release ot AOTC. WOTC decided to take advantage of the contractually-required re-release of the RPG to fix the acknowledged flaws in the previous edition while incorporating the two years worth of player feedback. The new edition of the game is far stronger than the previous edition, and player acceptance is far greater than it ever was. I'd expect one more re-release in the summer of 2005 to support Episode 3; if it doesn't do likewise, I'd be surprised.

 

[shadow]

I'm against the idea of having to shell out nearly $100 for the revised rules. I've already spent several hundred dollars on D&D and d20 books (a lot of which I haven't been able to incorporate into my campiagn yet) and it appears that 3.5e will invalidate a large portion of the stuff that I own. I can understand clarifying rules and applying errata, but changing the classes, a large percentage of the spells, and monsters seems like a fairly major revision. That doesn't seem "backwards compatible" to me!
Of course I'll probably pick up the SRD for free online.