Darth Shoju
First Post
Good point, I'd forgotten that.
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Heroes #11: The Eclipse : Part 2/Dec2008
- Thread starter Truth Seeker
- Start date
Good point, I'd forgotten that.
Well, two more episodes in this volume set -- the one for December 8 and the one for December 15th.
And then Vol 4: Fugitives starts Feb 2.
(i think)
Steel_Wind
Legend
Thesis: The problem is that the show has been TOO influenced by comic books.
I know this is throwing a gauntlet down on the ground at a place like EnWorld, but the inherent strength - and weakness - of comic books is the unchanging nature of the characters.
Events happen, but only rarely do they have a real impact on the archetypes in the tale. The characters and their motivations, even when they achieve a 3d quality to some aspects of the characters, are like memory foam. They just don't change much, no matter how much you crush them over time.
Perhaps it is because comic books in the Silver Age were traditionally focused on a moving readership (read: target age group) that were loyal to the title and genre for a relatively short period of time during their tweens/adolescence - and then most of them moved on. (And it does not make you defective if you didn't move on. It simply makes you the exception to the rule in terms of the assumption of the target market).
The essential character remained, to be repackaged, reset and resold to the next batch of readers. This served the comic book industry well. It is also serves the movie industry well, as the volume of material that Hollywood consumes in terms of a particular hero's tale is relatively small. (And when they reach a point where they have made too many movies in the series, they find themselves in the need to "revise, reset, resell" the franchise. Just like in the comic books.)
But this approach does NOT serve the Television industry well in terms of a serialized drama. There is simply too much material that needs to be developed for the same audience. The unchanging nature of the characters breaks down under this repeated and relentless scrutiny by the same viewers.
Just as rarely in the classic comic book genre do events have far ranging and permanent consequences, so it is with Heroes as a series. Season 1 is the origin story and that goes more or less swimmingly... until it comes to its conclusion. After that, nothing progresses. With a few exceptions - nothing after Season 1 has any consequences at all. Nothing is permanent. The story and characters revert like memory foam.
Changes? There are no changes. There are basically no consequences, either. It is all one big theme park ride. It always comes back to the beginning.
So it may be that Heroes is in some respects very true to the genre and medium (at least at a particular point in its history) which inspired it.
But it makes for an increasingly bad serialized drama to its core audience. Those who are fans of the show, who stick with it, see repeatedly that the plot they are watching has no real consequences. It has plot devices to be sure, but no real consequences.
Not sure what they need to do to fix this. Better writers, surely, but seems to me the big guy, the one who has presided over this inconsequential slide, is the guy who should take the blame.
This is Tim Kring's fault.
I know this is throwing a gauntlet down on the ground at a place like EnWorld, but the inherent strength - and weakness - of comic books is the unchanging nature of the characters.
Events happen, but only rarely do they have a real impact on the archetypes in the tale. The characters and their motivations, even when they achieve a 3d quality to some aspects of the characters, are like memory foam. They just don't change much, no matter how much you crush them over time.
Perhaps it is because comic books in the Silver Age were traditionally focused on a moving readership (read: target age group) that were loyal to the title and genre for a relatively short period of time during their tweens/adolescence - and then most of them moved on. (And it does not make you defective if you didn't move on. It simply makes you the exception to the rule in terms of the assumption of the target market).
The essential character remained, to be repackaged, reset and resold to the next batch of readers. This served the comic book industry well. It is also serves the movie industry well, as the volume of material that Hollywood consumes in terms of a particular hero's tale is relatively small. (And when they reach a point where they have made too many movies in the series, they find themselves in the need to "revise, reset, resell" the franchise. Just like in the comic books.)
But this approach does NOT serve the Television industry well in terms of a serialized drama. There is simply too much material that needs to be developed for the same audience. The unchanging nature of the characters breaks down under this repeated and relentless scrutiny by the same viewers.
Just as rarely in the classic comic book genre do events have far ranging and permanent consequences, so it is with Heroes as a series. Season 1 is the origin story and that goes more or less swimmingly... until it comes to its conclusion. After that, nothing progresses. With a few exceptions - nothing after Season 1 has any consequences at all. Nothing is permanent. The story and characters revert like memory foam.
Changes? There are no changes. There are basically no consequences, either. It is all one big theme park ride. It always comes back to the beginning.
So it may be that Heroes is in some respects very true to the genre and medium (at least at a particular point in its history) which inspired it.
But it makes for an increasingly bad serialized drama to its core audience. Those who are fans of the show, who stick with it, see repeatedly that the plot they are watching has no real consequences. It has plot devices to be sure, but no real consequences.
Not sure what they need to do to fix this. Better writers, surely, but seems to me the big guy, the one who has presided over this inconsequential slide, is the guy who should take the blame.
This is Tim Kring's fault.
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Krug
Newshound
Uh what bugs me consistently is they're going over the same ground they have before. Comic books guiding the story? Done before. yes, we know Heroes is inspired from comic books, and it seems to be a move to appease the comic book crowd, but come on; stop pandering and just make a good story! There are snatches of it, such as Nathan thinking of using his powers to stop real evil, but it just gets covered by all the inexplicable and illogical plot turns.
Well, I think this season has had more than its share of problems. I have no idea what the root of them is, but it seems to me that this isn't entirely the fault of 'the writers.'
For one, I have this feeling...and it's just a feeling...that a lot of the resistance to real story development and change that has been commented on is on the part of the network, not the writers. The network's nature is to be conservative...when something works, they want to stick with that. The impression I got was that this season started out as being something where the writers wanted to shake things up and rock the boat. And then the network fired two producers and said, "NO."
So they backed up in a hurry and reset to null.
Now that's not to exonerate. Right from the start, there were problems. The changes too extreme to be believable, and the story idea tired and worn out after two seasons of basically the same thing (we know something bad's gonna happen, and we gotta stop it!). These things were not the network's fault. But the ridiculous, head-hurting, inexplicable retconning that took place over the past 4 episodes suggests to me that Big N has made itself felt, and that it is...displeased.
Heroes was, at it's best, about interesting things happening to interesting people. It was a great show because the plot came organically and naturally from the interaction of its characters and the events that took place in ways that seemed easy to understand. The best moments in the series continue to come from those moments.
Unfortunately, time and time again in Season 3, the show has subordinated character to the iron will of Plot...rather than the other way around. Claire WILL turn evil, YES SHE WILL, even if it makes no sense! Sylar WILL turn good, and be easily manipulated, OH YEAH, and who cares why?
Those are the main things I've been sad to see. I compare Heroes now to the ill-fated Matrix trilogy. I'm not sure that the makers of either really -got- what made the first in line so great...and what had to be done to keep it that way.
For one, I have this feeling...and it's just a feeling...that a lot of the resistance to real story development and change that has been commented on is on the part of the network, not the writers. The network's nature is to be conservative...when something works, they want to stick with that. The impression I got was that this season started out as being something where the writers wanted to shake things up and rock the boat. And then the network fired two producers and said, "NO."
So they backed up in a hurry and reset to null.
Now that's not to exonerate. Right from the start, there were problems. The changes too extreme to be believable, and the story idea tired and worn out after two seasons of basically the same thing (we know something bad's gonna happen, and we gotta stop it!). These things were not the network's fault. But the ridiculous, head-hurting, inexplicable retconning that took place over the past 4 episodes suggests to me that Big N has made itself felt, and that it is...displeased.
Heroes was, at it's best, about interesting things happening to interesting people. It was a great show because the plot came organically and naturally from the interaction of its characters and the events that took place in ways that seemed easy to understand. The best moments in the series continue to come from those moments.
Unfortunately, time and time again in Season 3, the show has subordinated character to the iron will of Plot...rather than the other way around. Claire WILL turn evil, YES SHE WILL, even if it makes no sense! Sylar WILL turn good, and be easily manipulated, OH YEAH, and who cares why?
Those are the main things I've been sad to see. I compare Heroes now to the ill-fated Matrix trilogy. I'm not sure that the makers of either really -got- what made the first in line so great...and what had to be done to keep it that way.
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
It ALWAYS begins with good writing. If that fails you have an immense struggle to create a watchable show with legs. Season 1 was great but they completely lost their grip on what MADE the show a hit. The show has coasted to where it is now on the strength of the character concepts but the plots have just been awful and about as UNcompelling as you can make them without the show becoming the paint-by-numbers channel.
Well you're right in a sense in that the network would have ALREADY dropped this show if they had anything useful to replace it with and they hadn't built their schedule around what was SUPPOSED to be a far bigger, better, more popular show. They thought they had something to compete with Lost - and they DID in season 1, but that was then. They fired two producers because the saw the BOMBING ratings for the show in season 2 and that they weren't getting any better into season 3.
That, if I understand correctly, was Kring & co.'s pitch TO the network execs as their plan for turning the ratings drop around. Seriously, the one thing a network can do to kill a show is move it around the schedule. Otherwise the show largely lives and dies by its ratings. Firing two producers is the networks unsubtle suggestion that those running/writing the show need to TRY HARDER because the network sees only epic fail.
And that is not network interference with the show - it is simply BAD WRITING and a bankruptcy of creativity.
Though it manifested over a longer term you can add Star Wars and Star Trek to that list.
The first season made the show a bona fide hit and deservedly so. It's been everything AFTER that which has caused the show to struggle. The ratings fell dramatically, they "retooled" the show, and it's STILL struggling. I seem to recall it being said at the time of the firing of those producers that even without the firings they already had shows in the pipeline that would be moving the show in a better direction again but I think we've now seen the results of those efforts and the response seems to be one of widespread underwhelming. I honestly will be mildly surprised if the show survives to begin "Chapter 4".
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LightPhoenix
First Post
If by "throw down the gauntlet," you mean mirror my thoughts on the comic influence... then yes.
I think it goes all the way back to the beginning.
My personal speculation is that no one writing for Heroes actually thought the show would be a hit. They mapped out a whole season, but beyond that never gave it serious thought. Of course, the show became a huge hit, and they've been scrambling to figure out what they're doing ever since. We get rehashed stories because they literally never bothered to think of what came next.
Kring's original plan was for characters to take a backseat or leave altogether once their story was done. The first season was mapped out with this in mind. Again, the show became a hit, and now you had to keep on main characters you might have gotten rid off initially. Again, they had to scramble to retool the show to focus around the big four (Claire/Peter/Nathan/Hiro). That's why a character like Suresh gets marginalized to such a high degree - he wasn't an overly popular character. (As an aside, that's also why I really feel bad for Ramamurthy.)
I'm also going to say that I don't think they really understand what made season one such a hit. In the second season, they thought it was the origin story people wanted, so they did more of that. This season feels to me like they get people want a story with an arc. What they don't seem to understand people don't want, in essense, a comic book soap opera. This goes to what Steel Wind said in his post. They just want a story on par with the first season.
Ironically, for all that I did not like season two, I think perhaps if it had a chance to play out fully, it would have been more cohesive and people would like it more. I liken it to season two of Lost; individually episodes were meh, but if you watch the entire season it's actually decent.
Darth Shoju
First Post
I think you are all right in various ways. I think that, to summarize, Tim Kring wanted to move on to more origin stories in the second season (as he stated), but was making concessions to the network by keeping some of the more popular characters involved (perhaps more than he wanted). When the ratings started to go south in season two, the network lost their patience and wanted the popular characters back in a big way to recapture the season one magic. Since season two was a shortened one, they didn't have a chance to really see if that strategy was going to pay off. Season three likely was mandated to be more like season one, and Kring tried to do what he could to do that *and* develope the characters. With the different writing team and the muddled goals, we got an inconsistent season that has likely been made more haphazard by mid-season attempts to "fix" things.
Hopefully, this latest reset will give them a chance to set things back on course.
delericho
Legend
Sadly, this was another bad episode in a bad season of what was once a great show. I seem to be in a minority in that I liked the vast majority of season two, but this season...
As I see it, the show suffers from three key weaknesses: too many characters, to many fake-outs, and several characters who have become damaged (almost) irrepairably.
The solution to the first and second problems is the same: the characters (and their writers) have to learn to pull the trigger. Especially when the character in question is the ruthless HRG, or the supposed villain Sylar. It would certainly have improved the show had HRG killed Elle in the first minute of this episode. It would almost certainly have improved the show to have Claire die outright (not least because no-one would have seen it coming).
As for the damaged characters:
Hiro was for a long time my favourite character. That's probably why I enjoyed the second season so much, because his story was front and centre. But this season has been a disaster, first in losing his half of the formula in the most boneheaded way possible, then failing to capture the second one, then six episodes of bumbling around, and now this tedious and annoying child-Hiro story. They must end this storyline immediately and get Hiro back to being at least mostly effective, or else it's time to write him out.
Sylar has also been badly damaged. Is he a villain? Is he a hero? Is he a Petrelli or not? Is he working for Angela against Arthur, for Arthur against Angela, playing both sides against the middle, or what? Just pick one and stick with it, for goodness sake! Oh, and he needs to die permanently by the end of the season - he's done his part.
Then there's Peter. Simply put, he should never have survived the end of the first season, because the writers just haven't known what to do with him. When he had his powers, he was too powerful. Without them, he's just annoying. What I think they need to do here is give the guy his powers back, have him do whatever he needs to do to resolve the story, and then somehow write him out in a clear and unambiguous manner. As with Sylar, he's done his part.
But the worst of the bunch is poor Mohinder. I don't think this character can be redeemed. In the first season, I actually liked him, and I especially liked the fact that he was the smart guy and also the guy without powers. In the second season, the smarts got badly degraded, and as soon as he went all Brundlefly on us the character lost all hope of redemption. Basically, he needs to catch a bullet in the brain in the next episode, simply to minimise the damage he's causing to the show week after week. At this point, I don't think anything else will do.
As I see it, the show suffers from three key weaknesses: too many characters, to many fake-outs, and several characters who have become damaged (almost) irrepairably.
The solution to the first and second problems is the same: the characters (and their writers) have to learn to pull the trigger. Especially when the character in question is the ruthless HRG, or the supposed villain Sylar. It would certainly have improved the show had HRG killed Elle in the first minute of this episode. It would almost certainly have improved the show to have Claire die outright (not least because no-one would have seen it coming).
As for the damaged characters:
Hiro was for a long time my favourite character. That's probably why I enjoyed the second season so much, because his story was front and centre. But this season has been a disaster, first in losing his half of the formula in the most boneheaded way possible, then failing to capture the second one, then six episodes of bumbling around, and now this tedious and annoying child-Hiro story. They must end this storyline immediately and get Hiro back to being at least mostly effective, or else it's time to write him out.
Sylar has also been badly damaged. Is he a villain? Is he a hero? Is he a Petrelli or not? Is he working for Angela against Arthur, for Arthur against Angela, playing both sides against the middle, or what? Just pick one and stick with it, for goodness sake! Oh, and he needs to die permanently by the end of the season - he's done his part.
Then there's Peter. Simply put, he should never have survived the end of the first season, because the writers just haven't known what to do with him. When he had his powers, he was too powerful. Without them, he's just annoying. What I think they need to do here is give the guy his powers back, have him do whatever he needs to do to resolve the story, and then somehow write him out in a clear and unambiguous manner. As with Sylar, he's done his part.
But the worst of the bunch is poor Mohinder. I don't think this character can be redeemed. In the first season, I actually liked him, and I especially liked the fact that he was the smart guy and also the guy without powers. In the second season, the smarts got badly degraded, and as soon as he went all Brundlefly on us the character lost all hope of redemption. Basically, he needs to catch a bullet in the brain in the next episode, simply to minimise the damage he's causing to the show week after week. At this point, I don't think anything else will do.
