D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Oofta]

Ain't my personal preference.

What I want will never be part of D&D.

My point is these conversations here, other forums, social media, podcasts, video platforms and other forms of media where it can be read, watched or heard exist for a reason.

These topics wouldn't crop up everywhere over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. if there was no meat.

I usually avoid the "wizards rule fighters drool" arguments because it's pointless. I like fighters just the way they are so I just shrug and ignore like most people.

Don't assume that just because the echo chamber is reflecting your opinion that it's anything but an echo chamber. A small minority that is vocal about their complaints is still a minority.

 

[Minigiant]

Or, you know, the same people bring up the same points in order to argue with the same people. Doesn't mean that this is something that the vast majority of people care about.

Heck, based on the arguments on this forum, a person might be confused and think that the Forge is something that gets talked about all the time at D&D tables, whereas if you go to tables and talk to players and ask them about it, they'll respond, "Uh, is that where the breast plate and swords get made?"

Or, you know, take the Warlord. I've never heard an actual player at any table demand to play one, and yet ... or, for that matter, the Champion. I've seen tons of Champions in actual play, but it you believe conversations here, only NOOBS that need to GIT GUD would ever choose that class.

This discussion is not just here. Isn't everywhere. To the point other RPG publishers and fans openly advertise these topics to draw eyes on their game.

And I've had requests for Warlords, Knights, Thugs, Duelists/Swashbucklers, Gunslingers, Gladiators, Anime swordmen, and Weaponmasters.

My point was that you'd see let if the margins on the fighter were not so small that customization without power creep wasn't so hard

 

[payn]

This discussion is not just here. Isn't everywhere. To the point other RPG publishers and fans openly advertise these topics to draw eyes on their game.

And I've had requests for Warlords, Knights, Thugs, Duelists/Swashbucklers, Gunslingers, Gladiators, Anime swordmen, and Weaponmasters.

My point was that you'd see let if the margins on the fighter were not so small that customization without power creep wasn't so hard

This sounds like working as intended to me.

 

[Minigiant]

I usually avoid the "wizards rule fighters drool" arguments because it's pointless. I like fighters just the way they are so I just shrug and ignore like most people.

Don't assume that just because the echo chamber is reflecting your opinion that it's anything but an echo chamber. A small minority that is vocal about their complaints is still a minority.

Again not my preference. When I'm on ENworld I'm always arguing for the wishes I've seen from others

I know what Minigiant wants in D&D is unpopular.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If we're going to talk about the most recent playtest:

The fighter got some decent extra options for use of second wind (adding it to ability checks is directly relevant here) and more uses of it. This is actually a bigger step forward than in the past, and will hopefully make it into the actual rule set.

But the wizard got Memorize spell - take 1 minute to prepare a spell you don't already have prepared (which is then prepared until you swap it out for another spell with this feature). This cranks the wizards Utility to 11 and basically means the wizard has any spell in his arsenal ready at a moments notice - a huge boon for the exploration and social interaction pillars. Much as I think this feature is very "wizardly" I think it's too much and hope they tone it down a bit.

Why do I care that the wizard got a thing that helps it differentiate mechanically, while talking about the fighter?

The fighter has options in the base class to contribute to social and exploration challenges.

The 2013 playtest.

How that proves your claim is not clear. At all.

The 5e Fighter is what the plurality of 5e fans want in a fighter. It however isn't what the majority of of 5e fans want.

Sounds fake.

The main difference is WOTC could not scrap the fighter because no option reached majority. They were forced to print the fighter.

Again, prove it.

Even taking that at face value doesn’t support the larger point you keep making. The fighter we got was the most popular fighter in a field of options that all had merits. When one options gets 35% and the next highest is 27%, the 35% option is the clear winner.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is no proof it is a small minority.

The 2013 fighter playtest process mirrored the Psions/Mystic playtest. There was a version that was simplier.There was a version that gave fighter core noncombat features. There was severals versions that had maneuvers core. Heck Crawford even wanted to make maneuvers core in the 2024 but halted only to preserve the Champion fighter simplicity and have battlemaster be backwards compatible.

The main difference is WOTC could not scrap the fighter because no option reached majority. They were forced to print the fighter.

Have you ever thought about playing the fighter from the playtest with the noncombat options? I think I can send you a copy if you don't have one.

 

[Mort]

Why do I care that the wizard got a thing that helps it differentiate mechanically, while talking about the fighter?

The fighter has options in the base class to contribute to social and exploration challenges.

The fighter got a nice, if not major, boost to the noncombat pillars of play - something it, IMO, needed.


But rather than leaving it there. The wizard, which IMO, didn't need any boost whatever got an even bigger boost outside the combat pillar.

It shows where the designer's minds are at.

 

[Oofta]

The fighter got a nice, if not major, boost to the noncombat pillars of play - something it, IMO, needed.


But rather than leaving it there. The wizard, which IMO, didn't need any boost whatever got an even bigger boost outside the combat pillar.

It shows where the designer's minds are at.

If you dislike the bonus wizards got, report it on the survey. The rules are not yet finalized.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you dislike the bonus wizards got, report it on the survey. The rules are not yet finalized.

They better finalize them soon. They're running out of time.

 

[Minigiant]

Again, prove it.

Even taking that at face value doesn’t support the larger point you keep making. The fighter we got was the most popular fighter in a field of options that all had merits. When one options gets 35% and the next highest is 27%, the 35% option is the clear winner.

That's still means 66% of the community wanted something else.

The 2021 champion fighter only had a 54% satisfaction rate as per WOTC. Aand that is with XGTE and TCOE propping it up with bonus options. 46% of their polled fans didn't like it.

But again this doesn't address that there literally aren't other nonmagical warriors that don't have a strong flavor attached to it in 5e. There are no other official options to go to. It could be jus Extra Attack and nothing else and be popular due to lack of competition in over 50% of nonmagical Archetypes.

But none of this goes to my point.

Bmy point is there is almost nothing in the fighter that the Average DMcan take away to make space for something you can add in to make a new class without inducing power creep.

Almost every nonofficial warrior that is not based around adjusting the game base paradigm is a OP power creep mess.