[+] The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - SPOILERS ALLOWED

Mercurius said:

Again, I just disagree with this - that "all stories are equally true" when we have a clear and distinct author and work in mind.

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Fiction is, by definition, not true. Three is a number. There are lots of other numbers, and all of them are not three. They are all equally not three. There are not varying degrees of not-threeness.

Mercurius said:

But I'm not sure what you are arguing here, other than to say that...Tolkien had influences?

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I'm arguing that Tolkien is not the original creator of Middle Earth (AKA Midgard), nor would he claim to be. He would be pleased that people continue to adapt what he wrote, just as he adapted what others wrote.

Mercurius said:

That would be like me writing Legolas as an MCU character and saying it s equally true as the Legolas of Tolkien's work.

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Which is correct. Legolas is a fictional character. Legolas does not exist. Legolas equally does not exist irrespective of who is telling stories about them.

Mercurius said:

All they really have is legal authority

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"All"? What authority is there apart from that defined by legal statute?

My take on canon is something like this.

Author writes original work. Could be a book, play, movie or whatever.

You should at least be somewhat faithful to the original material. If you're not expect backlash. That backlash might sink your project financially.

New stories fine retcons not so much (expect more backlash basically).

Changing mediums expect some changes eg book to movie adaptations. You want to hit the major points of the plot imho. Expect changes to dialogue etc.

Flesh out said world don't contradict it. If you do contradict it expect said backlash. If it sinks your project that's on you.

Ultimately it's about what works or not. Your tale might be good might be crap or somewhere in the middle.

There's a few trigger warnings likely to intensify any backlash and they're fairly predictable eg retcons, contradicting the original, rushing/condensing things to much.

TheSword said:

Fan-fic implies amateur work, without licence, shared on little-read forums. It is undeniably derogatory to refer to professional writers that have the rights to use the IP as making fan fic. They are making a TV adaption for cripes sake. It isn’t the same medium.

RoP is definitely the best thing I’m watching at the moment. Up there with Yellowstone!

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I used the term fanfic and it wasnt intended as derogatory, any derived work is imho fanfic, think of it as a synonym of Pastiche. Fritz Leiber or Philip Jose Farmer writing Tarzan pastiche or Robert Jordan or Steve Perry doing a Conan pastiche is also fanfic.

Tonguez said:

I used the term fanfic and it wasnt intended as derogatory, any derived work is imho fanfic, think of it as a synonym of Pastiche. Fritz Leiber or Philip Jose Farmer writing Tarzan pastiche or Robert Jordan doing a Conan pastiche is also fanfic.

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It might not be intended as derogatory but nevertheless it is derogatory and received that way. You might have your own ideas of what fan fiction is but I stand by my point that the common understanding is amateurish and unlicensed by definition. Use the term or not, I’ve just explained why it gets people backs up.

Most people wouldn’t consider fan-fic a suitable description of Robert Jordan’s Tarzan. It’s just Robert Jordan’s Tarzan. In the same vein Brandon Sanderson wasn’t writing fan fiction when he finished the Wheel of Time Series he was continuing the story in his own words.

I've very much enjoyed this Circles of Electricity show about the poor hard-working, disenfranchised uruks doing great works of engineering despite their obvious disabilities (they can't stand the sun AND they need torches at night...) to try to make a land suitable for themselves, while being harrassed by the evil elf-lady who'd like to keep their chief alive to see everyone of them killed. She's a very badass BBEG and I really thought she'd manage to kill that uruk-dad Adar.

On the minus side, I really don't understand why the show was always interrupted by extended scenes of those really mean children on their scout troop trip helping the creepy old guy (while being ready to abandon their friends to die in the wilderness if they can't keep up, which I think will void any badge they could claim for helping a stranger in need). I hope it will be explained in the last two episodes I have to watch.

I much preferred the interruption about the scheming elf trying to acquire reverse-kryptonite from the dwarves. A nice plot twist would be if those poor and decent dwarves, prompted to save the evil elves and mining mucho silmaril-metal dripping from the root of the tree, encountered some kind of hiccup on the way. I'm sure those elves (especially the politician one) would try to avoid responsability and shift the blame on the dwarves. TBH, the scheming elf plot was very good, feigning to be manipulated by his elders (the other elves, Celerity and Gilette) to convince the dwarf-prince to help in earnest... He really has a place among my favourite villains, right besides Agent Smith.

One thing I'm really liking about this show is Bear McCreary score. More specifically, I can't stop listening to his themes, especially Galadriel, The Stranger, Numenor, Valinor, and Elendil & Isildur. They're really strong, I think, and distinctive. I love the Mediterranean/Middle-Eastern/North-African sound of the Numenor theme, and The Stranger reminds me of Bedrich Smetana's Vltava.

Paul Farquhar said:

Fiction is, by definition, not true. Three is a number. There are lots of other numbers, and all of them are not three. They are all equally not three. There are not varying degrees of not-threeness.

I'm arguing that Tolkien is not the original creator of Middle Earth (AKA Midgard), nor would he claim to be. He would be pleased that people continue to adapt what he wrote, just as he adapted what others wrote.

Which is correct. Legolas is a fictional character. Legolas does not exist. Legolas equally does not exist irrespective of who is telling stories about them.

"All"? What authority is there apart from that defined by legal statute?

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I think we're too far apart to have a meaningful conversation about this. Just some basic, fundamental differences in our views about the nature of art and story, the relationship of an artist and their work, etc.

To address one thing, though: I'm not sure how much you know about Tolkien, but I'm reasonably certain he would have greatly disliked even Peter Jackson's films, and would have absolutely detested Rings of Power. So no, I don't think he'd be at all happy about the various adaptations of his stories, or at least disowned them as having no relation to his work beyond names and basic concepts.

Mercurius said:

I think we're too far apart to have a meaningful conversation about this. Just some basic, fundamental differences in our views about the nature of art and story, the relationship of an artist and their work, etc.

To address one thing, though: I'm not sure how much you know about Tolkien, but I'm reasonably certain he would have greatly disliked even Peter Jackson's films, and would have absolutely detested Rings of Power. So no, I don't think he'd be at all happy about the various adaptations of his stories, or at least disowned them as having no relation to his work beyond names and basic concepts.

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I think at this point it’s worth mentioning that this is a + thread and it’s not supposed to be about people trashing the show. I mean you might be right, maybe not but you’ll never prove it.

Incidentally the Sauron question has been answered, and even though I was wrong I really liked it!

Truly I was deceived.

What a disappointement this show has been.
If they placed magnets around Tolkien's coffin, Europe's energy crisis for the coming winter would be solved.