D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Krachek]

So the Wizard is the bucket and the fighter play the crab?

 

[Mort]

Fighters never run out of HP in my games. They may run out of GP because they have to buy healing potions by the pallet, but running out of HP? Nah. Never seen it.

Interesting, I see it all the time.

You seemed to have recognized it as a possibility, and taken steps (lots of healing potions).

I have a semi-open magic mart for that. But my campaigns tend to be relatively low magic. At 20th level the fighter had an custom legendary weapon, but everyone had a legendary item at that point. A couple of very rare items (belt and armor) and the group had a flying carpet he sometimes rode into battle. That was pretty much it. Meanwhile the wizard had just about as much stuff including a staff of power and a wand of lightning bolts.

Interesting. I've found giving items like staffs of power and wands of lighting bolts (to casters) problematic in 5e. The items allow the casters HUGE buffs in versatility.

This is only an issue if the PCs can get a long rest after every encounter. If that doesn't happen, the issue goes away in my experience. There's no such thing as a perfect system and there is far too much variability from one table to the next to ever achieve perfect (or even close to perfect) balance for every single table.

It's not a question of perfect balance. It's a question of acknowledging the imbalances so DMs can adjust for them in whatever way works for their groups

 

[Micah Sweet]

That would be even worse than deciding to use spells for psionics, yes. And how little sense would it make? You need to chant in a strange tongue and have eye of newt or a spell focus to "cast" inspiring word? What does it take to inspire you people?

But, in terms of resources, there are already both long- and short- rest recharge martial abilities, so that's doable... For that matter there's the odd BM maneuver that forces a save. Will save, even, IIRC.


I mean, it might be, if it were covered by an OGL/SRD....

Do you not have access to 4e? Or is this about wanting new material? If the latter, I sympathize.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Do you not have access to 4e? Or is this about wanting new material? If the latter, I sympathize.

New material, in-print material for new players - and the more vibrant community that comes with an active product line.

I mean, imagine being a TSR fan with no OSR?

 

[Oofta]

Interesting, I see it all the time.

You seemed to have recognized it as a possibility, and taken steps (lots of healing potions).



Interesting. I've found giving items like staffs of power and wands of lighting bolts (to casters) problematic in 5e. The items allow the casters HUGE buffs in versatility.


It's not a question of perfect balance. It's a question of acknowledging the imbalances so DMs can adjust for them in whatever way works for their groups

And I'm just saying that it's not hard to accomplish. I don't really pay a ton of attention to it, nor do any of the DMs I play with. There should be more advice on this, but it's not rocket science.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One free battlemaster manoeuvre use per turn as a baseline, it’s like the rogue’s backstab, and spend dice if you want effects on both your attacks, between tripping, pushing, luring, goading, distracting, commander’s striking you’ll always have a way to assist.

Like was said, to be to the battlemaster what the wizard is to the eldritch Knight

The thing there, though, is that the Battlemaster is a warrior from tip to toenails. It’s not a non-warrior concept being added to the fighter to make a warrior version of it, it’s a specific warrior concept being expressed through the fighter.

So I’d say a full class BM can’t really be as focused on maneuvers as the wizard is on spells.

 

[Mort]

And I'm just saying that it's not hard to accomplish. I don't really pay a ton of attention to it, nor do any of the DMs I play with. There should be more advice on this, but it's not rocket science.

I can't speak to your experiences, but from what I've seen - improper pacing (the kind that lets casters overly dominate) or a lack of compensation for that pacing is really, really common.

And the real problem isn't for DMs with decades of experience (though some certainly have this issue) but for new, newish DMs who don't know any better.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One free battlemaster manoeuvre use per turn as a baseline, it’s like the rogue’s backstab, and spend dice if you want effects on both your attacks, between tripping, pushing, luring, goading, distracting, commander’s striking you’ll always have a way to assist.

Like was said, to be to the battlemaster what the wizard is to the eldritch Knight

To be clear yeah that works too. Probably better than attack trading as such.

Really attack trading is how I’d make a non-BM fighter warlord work.

Like add attack trading with juicy options when you trade in an attack to the PDK, and I think it probably kicks ass as a very 5e warlord.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I can't speak to your experiences, but from what I've seen - improper pacing (the kind that lets casters overly dominate) or a lack of compensation for that pacing is really, really common.

And the real problem isn't for DMs with decades of experience (though some certainly have this issue) but for new, newish DMs who don't know any better.

Exactly. On both counts.

To be clear yeah that works too. Probably better than attack trading as such.

Really attack trading is how I’d make a non-BM fighter warlord work.

Like add attack trading with juicy options when you trade in an attack to the PDK, and I think it probably kicks ass as a very 5e warlord.

It would need actually useful healing. PDK's existing "share your Second Wind" is garbage, which is a big part (though far from the only part) of why the subclass overall is garbage.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Attack Trading as a primary feature makes sense if the only Warlord build you're aware of is the "Lazy" Taclord build.