D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Minigiant]

Are you thinking to equalize stat usefulness or something? How would more physical skills not just make it harder to be generally competent at physical stuff?

Yes to the first.
To the second, they don't have proficiency as is.

Strength (Browbeat)
Strength (Riding)
Constitution (Endurance)

Maybe Charisma (Streetwise)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes to the first.
To the second, they don't have proficiency as is.

Strength (Browbeat)

How is this different from intimidation?

Strength (Riding)

Maybe, but would this really be useful often enough? Wouldn't it just force a person who wants to be a mounted knight to use one of their few skills on this. Also doesn't it overlap with animal handling?

Constitution (Endurance)

I considered adding this when I revamped skills for my game, but in the end I decided against it as in any situation you'd use it it makes just as much sense to just use con save.

Maybe Charisma (Streetwise)

That might be good. I have had some situations where the characters are gathering information is a city and it is hard to determine what skill should be used.

 

[Minigiant]

It was not hostile to new tropes, adding them simply wasnt the point.

5e wasnt against them, it was simply made to be the 'default D&D' experience, not with an eye to the future, but with an eye of representing the 'ur-D&D' which would then go into stasis.

Like this is known, its been stated openly that there was every expectation after 4e, that the next version was going to be it, wrap it up, and done, dont forget to turn off the lights.

It was not meant to 'excite new players'.
It was not meant to innovate the genre.
It was not meant to deconstruct RPGs, or represent out of the box every play style, every trope, every concept.
It certainly was not meant to appeal to 4e players.

It was meant to take what the Western consciousness understands to be D&D, implement a basic, straight forward framework, minimize the number of systems in play, and just wrap it up in as much core, foundational aspects of D&D as possible.

And because that basic package, the release version of 5e, actually struck the right tone, and resonated enough because we understand that it fundamentally is D&D?

It was successful.

I never said it wasn't successful.

You and I are seeing the same thing.
5th edition focused on traditional tropes.
5th edition did not put any focus on adding new tropes.

In the sources of inspiration for the traditional tropes of D&D there are additional archetypes.

The Crab Bucket are the people who say that D&D should not provide those additional archetypes now that it is successful and can afford to provide them.

Wizards of the Coast is not going broke. This is not a TSR situation.

 

[Tony Vargas]

How is this different from intimidation?

Browbeat isn't literal, anyway.

But, yeah, somehow STR to intimidate is the poster boy for lifting Storyteller's Attribute + Ability scheme for use in d20. Just, Mr. DM, call for whatever stat seems best, plus proficiency if you have whatever skill seems best.

Roll INT + PER, no make that WIS + SEARCH, y'know what, CHA + Basketweaving.... just roll a d20 ....

no, seriously, it's a fine idea, divorcing skills and stats

.... players just have to get good at figuring out what action declarations will get their good stats to be called for... like if your DEX blows, go on about carefully researching the local vegetation and making camouflage adventurer's clothes...

 

[Minigiant]

How is this different from intimidation?

It's not.

It's just so that Warrior classes can use their strength in social situations without invoking the variance rule of using skills with alternate ability scores and open up the huge can of worms that is because most DMs do not understand even how to use that variant rule nor does Wizards of the Coarts explain the different ways to use it.

If I win the lottery and retire from work, I most likely definitely will publish an article on how to use that variant rule in D&D.

Maybe, but would this really be useful often enough? Wouldn't it just force a person who wants to be a mounted knight to use one of their few skills on this. Also doesn't it overlap with animal handling?

Animal Handling kinda does and kinda doesn't.

It's kinda a brute force vs finesse thing.

Again if that variant rule was more widely used we wouldn't need this but that's the whole problem. That very rule isn't widely used and this barely an explanation how to use it.

I considered adding this when I revamped skills for my game, but in the end I decided against it as in any situation you'd use it it makes just as much sense to just use con save.

Con save is kind of iffy because every warrior technically should be good at enduring best in pain but every Warrior class does not get con save proficiency.

Chalk another one up to oversimplification in 5e

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, but well it helps to frame a conversation, to gain some glimmer of shared understanding, if we actually define words.

That Guard FT percentage? Close to 80%. Thats pretty consistent!
That Batter hit percentage? 30% is GOOD!
Fighter swinging at an appropriate target? I believe is 70% odds.

So if the claim is 'without expertise/advantage one cannot be consistent' then I would like to see what 'consistent' in this case means.

30%-80% is quite the swing.

Apologies. I meant to communicate that I’d define it as “enough to succeed the majority of the time on normal ie moderate and easy DCs”.

 

[Minigiant]

players just have to get good at figuring out what action declarations will get their good stats to be called for... like if your DEX blows, go on about carefully researching the local vegetation and making camouflage adventurer's clothes...

Good blanking luck Tony.

If players are too noobish tired or lazy to remember what modifiers they have for skills there's no way you're going to divorce skills and ability scores.

Therefore the best course of action is to just add new skills that are just the similar action as existing skill with a different ability score.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Therefore the best course of action is to just add new skills that are just the similar action as existing skill with a different ability score.

No it isn't. That is a terrible kludge that creates ugly duplicate skills. Super inelegant design.

The core issue is that it is too difficult to have a good score in an ability that is not central to your class. Fix that, it fixes most of these issues. Then there also is no need of awkward patches like letting barbarians to use strength for everything or having fighters to boost any skill with the second wind.

 

[Pedantic]

No it isn't. That is a terrible kludge that creates ugly duplicate skills. Super inelegant design.

The core issue is that it is too difficult to have a good score in an ability that is not central to your class. Fix that, it fixes most of these issues. Then there also is no need of awkward patches like letting barbarians to use strength for everything or having fighters to boost any skill with the second wind.

There's several possibilities. My preferred resolution would be to take the existing ability scores, atomize them out to their individual effects (e.g. +Defense, +melee attack, +ranged attack, +melee damage, +ranged damage, social defense, perception, individual skill actions) and then redesign them from the ground up with an equitable division of labor baked in. Then adopt something like Fantasy Craft's point buy, which biased PCs towards flat 13s across the board, and made specializing in any given ability score fairly expensive. If ability scores all had roughly equitable effects on the character's overall competence, then you have actual build trade-offs.

Probably also good would be largely decoupling accuracy from ability scores.

 

[Minigiant]

No it isn't. That is a terrible kludge that creates ugly duplicate skills. Super inelegant design.

The core issue is that it is too difficult to have a good score in an ability that is not central to your class. Fix that, it fixes most of these issues. Then there also is no need of awkward patches like letting barbarians to use strength for everything or having fighters to boost any skill with the second wind.

What's your solution?