Do you like D&D?

[hexgrid]

I don't want to toss you out because you don't like the rules, though I wondered why you are here (though there have been several good answers to that here). I would like to see those tossed out who come here just to bash about 3e. I lament the fact that you can't do to them the same you do to someone who came in to ruin your party. Because that's what they do: They come in here with the intention to ruin our day. There may be some exceptions where someone is just angry at the rules for any reason and wants to vent it here, but then again, you don't want a vocal vegan ranting on your barbeque, no matter how hit-and-missed he's about the conditions the animals in the local slaughterhouse are held in.

The thread that started the current round of bashing was, from the first post, an obvious a flame war waiting to happen, and it wasn't stared by a 3e basher.

Many (incorrectly) read it as "My study shows that non 3e games suck!" The anti-3e contingent took the bait, but they didn't start the thing.

 

[Psion]

D&D the game (which encompasses the various versions from 1974 through the 90s), and D&D the gaming and genre style. You can play "D&D style" with several other systems, including d20. But the core mechanics, premises, and flavor of d20 and D&D are different, and constitute two seperate games, not a simple continuace of a new edition.

By any fair definition of a new edition, no. It is a new edition. Of the same game.

What is it, explicitly, that makes 3e not be fair to call part of that 74 to 90 continuum? Certainly, those all weren't the same game, and I think I would make a fair case that OD&D is more different than 2e or RE D&D than 2e or RE D&D are from 3e? I see no justification for the notion that 3e is in some way SOOO different.

Likewise, AD&D had recognizable elements from OD&D, but constituted a new game, not a new edition of the original rules. You have to realize, at least for me, there is no quality judgment in my assessment.

To me, there is no justification in your assessment, either. It's a bit to me like saying that burnt orange is the only orange, but red orange is too red to be really orange. That may be your persepctive, but you have told me nothing substantial to tell me why I should lend it any credence, much less adopt it myself. At the same times, things I do lend credence to -- such as common vernacular and trademark ownership -- not only don't leave me with any reason to adopt your particular labelling scheme, the promise me that were I to adopt it, I would have trouble communicating with the thousands of other gamers out there who happen to include D&D 3e in the term "Dungeons and Dragons."

 

[rogueattorney]

IMO, it does so much more than anything else you've put forward.

There is a point to which you can go, though, where branding alone doesn't make it so. Slapping a "Dungeons & Dragons" sticker on a chess board (to cite a ridiculous example) wouldn't fool anyone. No one who's ever played the game would accept the product as Dungeons & Dragons. Is D&Dv.3.x so far gone as to have reached that point? It's arguable, but I'd say that the simple fact that so many people who played the old game accept the new one as D&D answers the question with a "no".

Could a new version of D&D remain a fantasy p&p rpg and yet be so different as to not be accepted as D&D by the fan base at large? I say it's quite possible. Runequest Slayers and T20 are two examples of new versions of long-standing role playing games which were simply unacceptable to the marjority of the existing fanbase. When people say, "Runequest" or "Traveller", those aren't the games they're talking about.

In large part, the changes made in D&D over the years, and I'd say this was particularly true in the case of 2e and 3e, were made to make D&D more palatable to those who weren't D&D fans. Necessarily, this means that those changes are going to turn off some of those who already were fans of D&D. That's just a fact of life. And to those people, the changes that have made D&D, less D&D-y, are simply not going to feel that the game is the same thing no matter what the copyright holder says. And the more often D&D is changed, and the more radical those changes, the more people are going to feel that way.

EDITED to make some sense.

R.A.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Psion - like I posted, I'm sure the compare and contrast of d20 and (A)D&D has been done to death. Do I really need to go into my specific justifications for seeing a difference big enough to constitute a new game?

 

[Gentlegamer]

In large part, the changes made in D&D over the years, and I'd say this was particularly true in the case of 2e and 3e, were made to make D&D more palatable to those who weren't D&D fans.

Just so! I have read of many current d20 players who said they grew dissatisfied with AD&D at some point years ago, and only returned because of "3e." My repeated response: "you have not come back to D&D. You still have not returned." And what is puzzling is these same players get very upset that you are implying they aren't playing D&D, when they it is they who left D&D years ago, and only returned when "D&D" had been made radicially different. What do they care if it is called "D&D" or not?

 

[Quasqueton]

If you are not playing D&D in its current and ultimate edition (some call it D&D3.x), you are not actually playing the Dungeons & Dragons game. Those earlier editions were just notes, alpha, and beta playtest versions to build up to this complete game system. D&D [current edition] has finally (after 30 years) matured into its fully formed and functional state.

We appreciate the early designers and playtesters for working with and on the incomplete system in its first few editions. Too bad some aren't capable of upgrading to the finished product. But such is enlightened progress; some can't keep up.

Quasqueton

 

[Plane Sailing]

You have to realize, at least for me, there is no quality judgment in my assessment. My statement that d20 is a different game from D&D and not a new edition is not a slam, denigration, insult or anything of that sort. For me, it is seeing the truth of the matter (calling a spade, a spade).

Gentlegamer, you have to realise that your statement can be taken as a slam, denigration or insult, and the fact that you keep repeating it doesn't help.

I can see that you appreciate plain speaking, so I'll tell you plainly - please drop it, OK?

Cheers,

 

[delericho]

Actually, never mind.

 

[rogueattorney]

If you are not playing D&D in its current and ultimate edition (some call it D&D3.x), you are not actually playing the Dungeons & Dragons game. Those earlier editions were just notes, alpha, and beta playtest versions to build up to this complete game system. D&D [current edition] has finally (after 30 years) matured into its fully formed and functional state.

We appreciate the early designers and playtesters for working with and on the incomplete system in its first few editions. Too bad some aren't capable of upgrading to the finished product. But such is enlightened progress; some can't keep up.

What unqualified B.S.! I mean seriously. I answer your stupid poll in good faith, trying to engage in intelligent conversation, and you turn around and bitch slap me. Nice punk move. Was that your plan all along, to goad some old-schoolers into conversation and then insult them. Or are you just so lacking in attention span that you forgot about the whole "no insults, please" caveat that you typed in your firt post in this thread.

Go **** yourself.

R.A.

 

[Abraxas]

If you are not playing D&D in its current and ultimate edition (some call it D&D3.x), you are not actually playing the Dungeons & Dragons game. Those earlier editions were just notes, alpha, and beta playtest versions to build up to this complete game system. D&D [current edition] has finally (after 30 years) matured into its fully formed and functional state.

We appreciate the early designers and playtesters for working with and on the incomplete system in its first few editions. Too bad some aren't capable of upgrading to the finished product. But such is enlightened progress; some can't keep up.

This to could be seen as a slam/insult.

Your poll lacked one particular option that would have better represented my feelings on D&D.

I prefer any version of D&D over any version of any other system.